GWTW discussion-Moon and Uncle-

[carlos]

Of course you all can write whenever you want, here, but we, with Moon, are sending each other VERY interesting messages, so I think it,s going to be great to open a new Topic here, so everybody can read them. (and I can save them!!.. hehe)-
Moon:
About Scarlett hidding her fear..: yes, and I think she begans to do it in the scene where she make the oath: "As God is my witness..."-
She arrives to Tara.. with a LOT of fear- Seeing the horrors during her travel: I always tremble with the sight of dead bodies and the carriage with the girls & baby passing through them!!- Later she saw Twelve Oaks burned and of course she thought that Tara was burned too.. THEN?: when she thought she was saved, in her home again... her mom was dead and her father insane- Without money or food- She "close" her mind in the scene where Mammy begans to told her that all slaves were gone except Pork and herself.. and Prissy asking for help..etc- She walks like a robot to the fields so she can eat something- When she did that (eat) her body (as you said) rejects the meal and she vomits. That was too much for her- For one second (or two) she felt lost, the fear gains her.. and she began to cry like a child- BUT then.. the "other" Scarlett appears: Yes, she made the oath (an incredible scene !!) and we see how Scarlett changes in the Second Part- After the intermission: when she slaps Suellen and with a face like marble she told her that " to hate Tara is the same as hating Pa and Ma"- I think that Scarlett took Tara (at first) as her "life-belt".. It was the ONLY thing that hasn,t dissapeared in the War- For that reason she tries to save the Land even if she had to be Rhett,s mistress !!- And of course, later, she loves Tara like mad.. Like her family-
Now, I would love to discuss the scene where she kills the yankee-deserter: I HAVE to discuss that scene with a friend of mine who is a judge: as I wanted to know IF she was guilty or not for a crime- If she could have been arrested: his answer was : Yes, she could have been arrested, but as the only witness of the killing was her sister-in law, and obviously Melly was at Scarlett,s side, both girls have the power to invent that the yankee had his gun in his hand when she kills him- This is very important, cause the "case" changes: she kills him as her own-self-defense. The other witness could have been the yankee..but he was dead- Scarlett could have been arrested BUT after Melly,s and her declaration: Free-
Now- With your explanation about Scarlett hidding her fear I can understand, now, HOW she kills the man: she wasn,t "thinking" or "feeling" what she was going to do: I saw that scene a thousand times, and Scarlett,s face transforms from the initial fear..when she first saw the man..to a total decision to kill him: even she took off her shoes (she was making a PLAN). And she stands in the stairs with a face like: "yes, I am here alone.. Come and get me"- So the man goes...
What can you tell me about it under a psychological way ?- I LOVE that !!- hehe-

[MissMonoki]

Hi Uncle,

How wonderful of you to make it a topic on its own.

You make a very good point there. The oath is a way to fortify herself against all the horrors she's witnessed. Tara becomes her rock, the symbol of all that was good and beautiful, where she was a happy girl, surrounded by her parents, not a care in the world. She wants to preserve that because it was an untainted, happy place and it is a connection to her parents and ancestors. It is, as her father says, in her blood.

Well, the killing scene is interesting from a psychological point of view. When we experience acute fear our body prepares us to either fight or run (the fight or flight principle). This response is hardwired in your brain, it's an evolutionary thing.
The decision to fight or run is made subconciously, you're body and mind react automaticly. Your body produces enormous amounts of adrenaline and cortisone, you become extremely focussed and clearminded and it's all about short term survival. Nothing else matters at that moment.

We've already established that Scarlett knows how to endure the sufferings of war by repressing her fear, she's a fighter. So when she sees the soldier coming to the house, her initial emotion is fear, but this is automaticly repressed and fight takes over. Her mind becomes clear and she knows how to lure him onto the staircase in order to shoot him at close range. You do see emotions on her face, but she doesn't feel them, they are repressed by her survival instincts. She does what it takes to protect herself and her family.

You can also see the difference with Melly. Granted, she is not well, but Melly is not a fighter like Scarlett. She is hesitant, stands there with that sabre and follows Scarlett's directions. But she does react quickly to protect Scarlett and tells the sisters off after the shot is fired. That's Melly's maternal instinct!

What are your thoughts on this?

[carlos]

I love that you call me Uncle !!!!- hehe... I love that !!!!-
Ok, my niece:
About what she feels for Tara... what you wrote makes me almost cry, cause it,s exactly the same of what I feel for the "lost-house" of my grandparents: in that house (now demolished) I felt, all my life, exactly the things Scarlett felt about Tara- That,s one of the "parts" I have in common with GWTW- I can understand perfectly well her feelings- I would have done the same, for my grandparents house IF I would had only the chance-But I haven,t-
About the scene of Scarlett and the yankee: Of course Vivien plays it perfectly well: In that scene, when the man throws Hellen,s sewing-box to the floor, Scarlett ONLY MOVES HER EYES to that loving object: only a second.. and YOU know the man is condemned...Tell me if this is not true- With that terrible gesture, the man condemned himself- Scarlett was absolutely sure of what she had to do !!- ( I would do the same... I have to tell you).
Melly.. yes, is like Scarlett,s mother- Scarlett loves her, but because of that Ashley,s fantasies she couldn,t see it till the end- But what you said is true: Melly was like her mom- And Scarlett depends in that "maternal-love" during all the film. IF Hellen would have been alive in that same situation, she would have done the same as Melly- Protect her daughter. The differences between them you can also see when they search for money in the dead,s man purse- The reaction of each one of them is absolutely different- Also Mammy was like her real mom, except that Scarlett WAS rather affraid of Mammy..hehe- ( I LOVE Mammy !!!)
What I HAVE to ask you is this: WHY your mind choose to escape or to kill the man?- I mean, WHY one can choose ?- I don,t know if you understand me: WHAT makes the difference in your choosing?-
Scarlett, also, is VERY protective: I can see that with her father: her father.. when insane.. was like her child, her son- When Gerald took the horse to run Wilkerson.. Scarlett shouts like a tiger-mom.. Also..when Bonnie was about to jump with the pony..Scarlett,s face is like an "horror masque": the same face than when her father falls from the horse- You have been talking about how Scarlett fights for Tara and her family, EVEN for Melly, when she had her baby: Do you think it,s because her character, or because she IS protective?- Because many people talks about how selfish she is... MMMMM ... I think that 70 per cent of what she did..she did it to help others: Her family, Melly, Ashley, her slaves (like in the scene with Big Sam when she saw them in Atlanta under the granades)- What do you think about it?- Your uncle who admires you !!-

[MissMonoki]

So sad to read about your grandparents' house, but I hope your memories of your grandparents and their home are a consolation to you.

Yep, the soldier's greed is his undoing. He sees a young woman standing on the stairs with a jewelry box. It blurs his assessment of the situation. His greed is bigger than his caution, so he loses.
Also, you're right: his contempt for her mother's jewelry box is an insult to Scarlett and it strenghtens her even more.

On the question how do you choose to fight or run, the answer is you don't, your mind automaticly switches to fight/flight. Your mind makes that decision for you, it feels as if you are doing it without thinking, because you make that decision within a nano second.
But it can be trained: for example, soldiers are trained to stay and fight in dangerous situations, while their system wants them to run. When you train this, your fight/flight system changes, and your automatic response to danger will be to fight every time.
So, some people fight, some run and a few freeze (ever seen a person in danger who was just unable to move? that's freezing). It just is the way it is.

But the fight/flight response aside: what would you do if a soldier came up to you with a gun? It's either him or you, so of course you shoot him. You may be against killing, but in that situation you will do anything to survive, that's human nature. I would have killed him, too.

About her protectiveness: Before the war we see Scarlett as a spoilt young girl, who likes to wrap men around her little finger and she is too charming for her own good. Everyone is enamoured with her. Everything is done for her. Her character isn't fully developed, she has no responsibilities.
During the war she does some lovely things, but she does it because she doesn't want to look bad compaired to the fundamental goodness of Melly: helping Dr. Mead with the wounded soldiers, donating her wedding ring.
She finally begins to show some responsibility and protectiveness when Melly is in labour. She doesn't want to help her at first, she wants to leave, but there is no one to help Melly so Scarlett stays. She does this for Ashley.
The real change in her is when she returns home to Tara. She thought she could go back to the loving arms of her mother and father and take shelter and be spoilt again. But no, mother is dead, father insane. No one has taken over the parent role, so Scarlett does. (this is also a familair issue in psychotherapy: children take on a role that's not fulfilled by others, even when that role is too much for them.)
In order to be a good "parent"/protector to those around her during the war, she has to repress her fear (we talked about that earlier). We all have a protective side (unless you're a psychopath), because it's a sign of love, whether it's love for a home, an animal or a person. And you can be protective and spoilt at the same time. We all have a light side and a dark side. The one cannot exist without the other. Like when she goes into the lumber business with Ashley. She does this to help him but also to keep him close, because she thought she still loved him. Protective and selfish at the same time!

Sorry Uncle, but I don't know if I agree with your 70% , I do think she did hurt the people who loved her:

GOOD to her loved ones:
- she delivered Melly's baby and made sure they made it to Tara
- she organized the houshold and the cotton harvest to feed the family (i think of Melly as family, they are sisters-in-law) and servants
- she shot the soldier to protect everyone
- she gave Pork the watch
- she gave Ashley a job

BAD:
- she married Charles as revenge on Ashley's engagement to Melly
- she married Suellen's beau to save Tara.
- she kept going after Ashley, hurting Rhett (Melly never believed the rumours).
- she drove through shanty town, even after she had been warned not to. This led to Frank's death and Ashley being shot. They burned down those shacks, so maybe Big Sam died as well.
- she refused to have sex with Rhett after they had Bonnie.
- she takes Mammy and Pork to her new home, leaving her sisters to fend for themselves at Tara.

What's your take on this? Have I forgotten something?

[carlos]

Sorry Uncle, but I don't know if I agree with your 70% , I do think she did hurt the people who loved her:

GOOD to her loved ones:
- she delivered Melly's baby and made sure they made it to Tara
- she organized the houshold and the cotton harvest to feed the family (i think of Melly as family, they are sisters-in-law) and servants
- she shot the soldier to protect everyone
- she gave Pork the watch
- she gave Ashley a job

BAD:
- she married Charles as revenge on Ashley's engagement to Melly
- she married Suellen's beau to save Tara.
- she kept going after Ashley, hurting Rhett (Melly never believed the rumours).
- she drove through shanty town, even after she had been warned not to. This led to Frank's death and Ashley being shot. They burned down those shacks, so maybe Big Sam died as well.
- she refused to have sex with Rhett after they had Bonnie.
- she takes Mammy and Pork to her new home, leaving her sisters to fend for themselves at Tara.

What's your take on this? Have I forgotten something?

MMMMM- Feedle dee dee !!- hehe.... Well, I have my own opinion about that- I really think that Scarlett WANTS to hide some of her best qualities, because she is stubborn- So stubborn as her father, for that reason Scarlett is her father,s pet-
She could have been worst:
- When Melly are in labor.. Scarlett had the option to escape to Macon- Why not?- EVEN Aunt Pitty goes, and she leaves Melly and Scarlett ALONE- Isn,t it?. MMMMM-
Also... Scarlett did that (to stay) because of Ashley.. ok, BUT she ( in all her fear) remembers her promise to him, to take care of Melly: you can say :" yes, she did it because of Ashley", .... BUT SHE DID IT- I mean, she is NOBLE. She maintains her promise to him even if she could be kill by Yankees... isn,t it?: remember: she is VERY scared ( so: run or stay..isn,t it?) , and worst: she knew her mother was ill- In the scenes when she went asking for help to Dr Meade (to help her with Melly), she is absolutely scared: She lost her control.. she shouts, slaps Prissy, she saw those soldiers dying in the Station with a face like : "I can,t believe this"..etc- When she returned, alone, to her house and she climbs the stairs to be with Melly... see again her expression: she was like a "trapped animal", BUT she did it- Also.. during Melly,s labour Scarlett gaves her strengh with a "calm" voice... even if she was absolutely scared !!- You can see that when Rhett goes and Scarlett "exploded" crying-shouting... etc- Like Rhett told her: like a little girl.
Scarlett can be selfish, rude, etc.. but she maintains, all the time, the protection to Tara and her family- She was the Belle of the County..but she works more than her slaves, during and after the war in Tara-
That scene when she went to see Rhett at prision is very clear to me: dressed with her mom,s curtains, she leaves all her natural proudness and "good girl" education to became something like a whore- All that because Tara & her family-
-Another point I want to make clear for you: Big Sam didn,t die in Shantytown: if you remember what happens after Scarlett,s attack.. Frank Kennedy and her sent Sam BACK to Tara- So.. her sisters were NOT alone at Tara: they..at least ..have Big Sam and Prissy with them-
- I STILL think that ... (OK.. let,s make an arrangement..hehe ) the 65 per cent of the things she did were for Tara and her loving ones- Scarlett herself can "hide" that sentiment.. but TO ME is very clear-
Hellen and Mammy gaves, her, a good legacy after all- Remember the scene after Frank,s death: she said: "I,m glad mother is dead.. so she can,t see how bad I becomes"- THAT is the proove that Scarlett has noble feelings: she can SEE reality and cry because of it- And in the scene with Ashley when he begans to talk about the Past: MMMM, THAT particular subject can destroy Scarlett- She wanted, she was educated to be a good girl, just like her mom.. so.. to look back.. is terribly for her- Those two scenes are the clues to Scarlett,s real character-
Don,t you think so?- ........ GREAT BALLS OF FIRE !!!!!- hehehe-

[carlos]

PS_ and another question: (am I obsessive?: YES !!!! hehe)- WHY in name of God everybody, including her family were against Scarlett,s attitudes when she ALONE saved everybody at Tara and her home?: I never understood this: The South is a very "close" society: they admire the strengh, even more if they save the family or their place, their land- So.. Atlanta,s society were sooooooooo against the O, Hara family (including the Wilkes) that they do prefere to see them died?- And what about Tara?- Scarlett would be accepted by Society if she let her home to be lost?-
MMMM ????-
Remember the scene at the paddock with Ashley: he, the "perfect" gentleman... good for nothing!!: talking about honor when Scarlett NEEDS help !!- She needs money to save Tara !!- The place where HE LIVES !!-And he beguns to talk, and talk about the war, the men he saw beeing killed...etc- GGGRRRRRR-

[Ivonne]

OH !!- I love reading all this !!!!!- I know you, Carlos, so much that I think that you could be the perfect friend with Scarlett.. HAHA... She is very, very beautiful and charming !!- Even when she is "bad"... haha !!!!- And that: charming and bad is an explosive combination !!!!!- I LOVE YOU!!!!- Your,s Ivonne-

[carlos]

OH !!- I love reading all this !!!!!- I know you, Carlos, so much that I think that you could be the perfect friend with Scarlett.. HAHA... She is very, very beautiful and charming !!- Even when she is "bad"... haha !!!!- And that: charming and bad is an explosive combination !!!!!- I LOVE YOU!!!!- Your,s Ivonne-

Well my dear Ivonne: THAT was the quality only Vivien was able to give to Scarlett: half demon-half Angel. A dynamite !!!!- love u too !!!!!- Carlos aka Scarlett,s friend... hehe-

[Ivonne]

WHAT happenes with this Topic?- No more discussion?....
MOON... are you there????.... We miss you !!...

[MissMonoki]

Sorry, I was busy with work and the family... but here I am

Feedle dee dee indeed! Of course you have your own opinion, you know the film much better than I do, and it makes this discussion so good!!!

Thanks for clearing the issue on Sam, I didn't remember. It's time to rewatch the film, I suppose..

The scene with Ashley, remembering the past. Beautiful. It is painful because Ashley can't cope with real life and has retreated into this dream world, but Scarlett is different. She lives in the real world and is painfully aware of all the things that are gone and how much she had to change and sacrifice, how strong she had to be for everyone, without any help or schoulder to lean on. But she is very good in compartimentalizing, she simply puts everything she doesn't want to think about away, in order to keep moving forward.

You're right, Scarlett does an honourable thing by staying by Melly's side, even when it gets really dangerous and she's terrified, but she pouts, she is not at all pleased. The point I was trying to make, is that there is a difference between doing things because of a promise (staying with Melly), or doing something intrinsically. The stuff she does during the war trying to protect her family, servants and Tara comes from within, and is therefore more powerful.

Ah yes, the scene after Frank's death, it's like when Rhett smells liquor on her breath. She's not the least bit sorry for doing the things she does (like marrying Frank to save Tara, even though he was promised to her sister and they didn't love each other), but she does feel remorse or pretends to feel it because of other people's judgement. She herself doesn't care that much. She just does what she has to do in order to protect the people and things she loves. And this also corresponds to your other question.

Papa O'Hara build Tara, so they were new plantation owners, while the families around them have been there for generations. The nouveau riche are usually looked down on by the establishment. In the case of Scarlett in particular, it is also a matter of manners. The etiquette for girls and women was very strict and she behaved very unladylike during her lifetime.
During the war, her family and friends were trying to hold on to their beautiful gentile world that was slowly but brutally taken away from them by maintaining the social rules. Having a social structure and trying to hold on to the past gives security in unsafe times. But in order to protect and save Tara and her loved ones, Scarlett had to live in the real world and behave contrary to the etiquette. And you have to understand, from a psychological point of view, it is very understandable that others blame Scarlett. Besides the etiquette thing, she takes charge and they do nothing. That makes them feel inadequate and ashamed. To make us feel better about ourselves we put the other person down.

I love the scene where she visits Rhett in the horse jail. It shows how clever and silly Scarlett is at the same time. Having those clothes made, having Mammy accompany her, quite the show she puts up. I love how Rhett plays along, he's no fool and he's the only man she can't dominate. He knows she is not just making a social call, she's never shown any interest, so she must be up to something!! He doesn't like that she takes him for a fool. So he teaches her a lesson by humiliating her twice. First by telling her that he's not the marrying kind and secondly by refusing to sleep with her.
She knows what kind of man he is, after all he looks as if he knows what she looks like without her chemise on (the barbecue at the Wilkes'), he's sarcastic at her at the ball and she fails to wrap him around her finger. Still, she plays the Southern Belle to empty his pockets. She should have known it wouldn't work on him. If she had visited Rhett without the charade, she still wouldn't have gotten the money, but she would have been spared the humiliation.
And directly afterwards, she puts on the same charade with Frank, who is stupid enough to fall for it.

What is your take on Rhett?